Republicanism? That’s a new term. At any rate, Franklin’s thinking wasn’t too different from what most people believed about African slaves in 1747. It was the convenience of ownership that allowed them to be comfortable with the idea that they weren’t much different from animals. If you diminish a man and make him an animal you don’t have to extend the courtesy of equal treatment. While wrong it was the way slave owners were able to live with themselves.
Franklin, before anything, was an inventor, a scientist, an intellectual. His thinking was based on logic, logic that made complete sense To HIM. His opinions were driven by logic. It doesn’t surprise me that he would use his version of logic to come to the opinions to which he did.
Republicans are xenophobes? Okay… tell me what foreign cultures, races, and ethnic groups strike fear into our very hearts that haven’t earned it?
By the way, Franklin was elected the president of the Abolitionist movement in Philadelphia in 1787. Elected. Elected as in there had to be others that voted him into that position of leadership. The petition Franklin sent to the relatively new Congress as president of that society called for Congress “to promote mercy and justice towards this distressed race” by immediately ending the African slave trade and eventually putting an end to the slavery in the new nation of America.
David Duke proud of Ben? Not for long. You see, people don’t always hold on to things they believed when they were 39 years old.
Timeline indeed! Civil Rights propaganda has done a great job in vilifying anyone with such ideas past or present as Franklin had; and, of course, whom the original poster vilified with relish. ‘Good retort, BTW, PrinceTrumpet!
Though you may vilify me in turn. For my own money I’d argue the ‘experiment’ is still in progress. Things can change quickly in population movements in this days world.
In the grand scope of history the TIME LINE has been but a hundred forty years and no solution to racial harmony is in sight.
The Jews can tell you it’s possible to be shoved about the world. It would likely be best for all concerned to return racial groups to homelands as much as possible where the original relocations were either illegal or immoral forced displacments. Natuarally disasters beyond imagination would have to occur before such population relocations could occur. But in an ideal world Blacks, in my view, shouldn’t be in white society.
Blacks have, in fact, widened the disparity themselves even more with embracing enemy cults, as Islam, Gangsterism and Voodoo and futhering racist anti social cutural investments as with Rap; frankly parasitesque behaviors as a group still prevail in the vast majority of them. Their population free ride has been ecliped with Mexican labor too; so their labor isn’t essential.
The Negro and Caucuscoid are indeed very different animals, hordes of mulattos notwithstanding. Intergration is yet, a reality to be achieved. I’d say for those esteemable Blacks and mulattos who flourish in the culture of the USA, they should work to uplift their brothers and emigrate to Africa. The bunch of the Negroid should be shipped back to Africa or at least out of the country. They were not citizens nor even classified as equals under the Constitution; and the evil practice of slavery, supported as it was, by crimminals, shouldn’t be justification to include them artificially into Western culture. It just doesn’t work.
Abe Lincoln, as their emancipator, had planned to send the slaves back to their respective homelands; agricultural/industrial interests thwarted that, but that’s the reparation they deserve.
I hear what you’re saying and I think your words come from discouragement and disillusionment with what your eyes see plainly all over the earth not just in the US.
My ancestors came from Spain and Africa yet I have no desire to return to either place to live nor do I think encouraging others like me is going to make things better. It would only shift the problems from one place to another. The US is my home. The friends that I have are a huge part of my life. My beautiful children would likely never consider anyplace but the US to be their home.
I see the races getting along together as a big part of G-d’s plan. Isolationism seems so unnatural to me. We’re in a point in history where we are seeing the lowest part of the blight that leftists have endowed as their legacy. What they did to change the Civil Rights struggle into a Black Power struggle was the single worst thing to minorities in this country however well-intended it might have been. Of course they had willing participants in the Black Power movement, don’t get me wrong. 70 years ago, blacks in America were as conservative as anyone is today. They were churchgoing, hardworking, pro-family, and loved America even though they were still treated horribly here. They were able to see a better day in the future and slowly but surely, as the years passed and blood was spilled in the streets, it seemed to be coming.
Then came Elijah Muhammed, Malcolm X, and The Black Panthers. White leftists fed the hate that was fomenting. LBJ ushered in the “Great Society” that finished what FDR started. It’s never been the same since then. Civil rights have been gained but tragic prices have been paid. The Black nuclear family has all but been destroyed. Black teen pregnancy and abortions have torn the fabric of black society. Black churches aren’t the part of society it once was and white liberals have been there every step of the way cheering this destruction on.
I say we’re at the lowest point and that our country will recover. Will it be in our lifetime? Probably not. But I’m betting we will rise up again to be a United States, stronger, like a hand that has been crushed and broken but whose bones will knit together. We have to, Court, we have to. And we’ll do it together. we don’t need to separate and go our seperate ways to accomplish. All we need to do is reject the way of the left and stay on course. We will fight, we will stay and fight. Reject their pseudo-intellectual blather. Reject everything that tears at our families. Embrace common sense. Embrace the will to live together as the family (I believe) G-d meant us to be.
No doubt it’d be a trail of tears should any relocations ever occur in the USA on that order … which I certainly doubt in my life time if at all. Nor are you talking to a David Duke type who’s at work inciteing rednecks to harrass non whites in my neighborhood. I’d in fact go to their defense should any such crimes occur. I just feel I have a right to look at the big picture and have druthers for one.
The USA has chosen the course of empire, and inclusion of all humanity is a prerequisite. I’d just prefer a humble nation.
I do sympathize but relocation needn’t always be the product of a Hitler. Sometime it’s just a matter of life and death. Particians of millions of innocent people uprooted from friends and country is not uncommon as with the Indian, Pakistani Muslim event. Sometimes ‘God’ himself shoves people about as with the poulation of New Orleans.
But truer than nation or empire is the still extant outlay of racial divisions around the world. South Africa for all it’s progress of Western technology and population of 5 million whites runs the risk of being another Rhodesia/Zimbabwa … of becoming another racial purge … a purge of the white population. Hong Kong too reveals the Chinese contempt for their white builders and the English population is accordingly shrinking.
There may be nations and there will be empires but, at the end of the day, most certainly ethnic and racial divisions will persist beyond them.
I thought the concensus of opinion was that George Bush was responsible for the disenfranchisement of the people of New Orleans. God did it?
Seriously, I’d have to side with princetrumpet on this, Court. Your initial response was getting pretty close to the kind of hateful rhetoric that the conservatives are always accused of, and I had a hard time reading it. My wife being Chinese and my kids being mixed probably makes me a little more sensitive to those concepts you spoke of, and while we agree on the nature of Islam, I disagree with you on this.
I don’t believe humans are naturally hateful or frightened of each other because of differences in color or appearance. Has there ever been a war waged by one race against another race because of race? It may have been a factor, it may have become a source of patriotic furvor, but I doubt that racial prejudices started the war. The desire for power, religion, and land are the causes of war, not race. Everyone wars with everyone else, regardless of diffeerences or similarities in race. This relocation you speak of, which I have no fear of ever happening, would do more harm than good. I doubt the world would survive it.
What you speak of is prejudice, not division. Because others are different, you do appear to be looking down upon them rather than thinking of them as equals. Again, I agree that the Islamic world has become a fascist empire, but it is their conduct, not their beliefs or their race, that have us at war with them.
I also don’t think the immigration of people to America is comparable to the events in Africa or China. We have a superior form of government, with guaranteed freedom, and we as a nation recognize mans desire for it by allowing immigration. What is happening in Hong Kong and Africa is a result of the power that was, Britain, accepting their place in the world and returning conguered lands to its original inhabitants. This is a natural relocation, whereas taking those that came to America, or are the ancestors of those who were enslaved here, and forcing their return to their native lands is not. The Chinese are in a position to make good use of what the British built; the Africans are not, and there will be many wars there as a result if they cannot get over their differences, none of which, as far as I can see, are racial.
Those in this country that desire its demise and hunger for its power have used any and all forms of prejudice to divide this nation. They took the words of F.D.R. and made it their M.O., you might say. Don’t give in to the fear.
Hate rhetoric? Your remarks come close to the vilification I predicted. Vilification is to be expected as a consequence of the welfare state’s propaganda, for anyone who dares make any non agreeable remarks concerning the state of racial affairs.
But feelings such as hate or mild annoyance etc. are not a legal or actionable transgression …YET. Still, you, as Prince trumpet, have exhibited great restraint given your family experience … I may well have been just as uncomfortable writing my opinions as you were reading that first post, had I known I’d be talking to those who have multiracial lives; (and, I don’t doubt PT’s children are as beautiful as he thinks.)I have had good friends among a variety of racial groups and don’t deny we can have much to share. I just think it’s best done from our respective cultures. Yet, your working affirmations of interracial harmony hardly proves my observations wrong in a larger context.
If you think racial harmony is inherent in people then do away with the government civil rights laws and protections and let society, even in this enlightened era, deal with race as it chooses, say in a community to community basis. I think you’d see a frightening regression and polarization in many areas. Balkanization would occur quicker than poop through a goose.
For many blacks war is and has been a state of affairs since their ancestors were chained and whipped for some damned plantations bottom line. I could not begin to compete with that hate rhetoric.
But conversely, I don’t share your sense that it’s merely justice to see whites harried from previous colonies. It to me betrays the worst sort of ignorant racism. Tell a Zimbabwean farmer it’s a ‘natural’ relocation from a farm that’s been in his family for centuries; one farm perhaps that fed the denzian blacks with foods beyond their wildest dreams. As far a the Chinese communists making ‘good use’ of what the British built .. it sickens me.
BTW it is the Islamic worlds ‘beliefs’ that are central to the clash of culture we are seeing.
Court, you got a way with words, haven’t you? I enjoy reading your comments, as I do the princes. Not that your comments were hateful, just that I don’t want your comments to appear to the casual surfer as the typical hate speech of conservatism. Your observations and your basis for them would be ignored by many because of your ‘solution’. If I could pull it off, I would do away with those laws… most, if not all were never needed. Had laws been applied equally and uniformly as they should have been, those civil rights laws might never have been wanted. I doubt we would be any more polarized than we are now in the inner cities across the nation. I never said it was ‘justice’, but the whites in Africa should have seen what was coming like a herd of elephants. When the train’s coming at you, get out of the way. As for the Chinese commies, well, it’d be great if they weren’t commies, but the British gave it up; what the commies may not see is that the capitalism of Hong Kong just might take over the rest of the nation before the party leaders can do anything to stop it. I can only hope. And I can only hope that the rest of the world will agree with us that Islam is the greatest enemy to all of us.
princetrumpet on Aug 23
Republicanism? That’s a new term. At any rate, Franklin’s thinking wasn’t too different from what most people believed about African slaves in 1747. It was the convenience of ownership that allowed them to be comfortable with the idea that they weren’t much different from animals. If you diminish a man and make him an animal you don’t have to extend the courtesy of equal treatment. While wrong it was the way slave owners were able to live with themselves.
Franklin, before anything, was an inventor, a scientist, an intellectual. His thinking was based on logic, logic that made complete sense To HIM. His opinions were driven by logic. It doesn’t surprise me that he would use his version of logic to come to the opinions to which he did.
Republicans are xenophobes? Okay… tell me what foreign cultures, races, and ethnic groups strike fear into our very hearts that haven’t earned it?
By the way, Franklin was elected the president of the Abolitionist movement in Philadelphia in 1787. Elected. Elected as in there had to be others that voted him into that position of leadership. The petition Franklin sent to the relatively new Congress as president of that society called for Congress “to promote mercy and justice towards this distressed race” by immediately ending the African slave trade and eventually putting an end to the slavery in the new nation of America.
David Duke proud of Ben? Not for long. You see, people don’t always hold on to things they believed when they were 39 years old.
Court on Aug 23
Timeline indeed!
Civil Rights propaganda has done a great job in vilifying anyone with such ideas past or present as Franklin had; and, of course, whom the original poster vilified with relish.
‘Good retort, BTW, PrinceTrumpet!
Though you may vilify me in turn. For my own money I’d argue the ‘experiment’ is still in progress. Things can change quickly in population movements in this days world.
In the grand scope of history the TIME LINE has been but a hundred forty years and no solution to racial harmony is in sight.
The Jews can tell you it’s possible to be shoved about the world. It would likely be best for all concerned to return racial groups to homelands as much as possible where the original relocations were either illegal or immoral forced displacments. Natuarally disasters beyond imagination would have to occur before such population relocations could occur. But in an ideal world Blacks, in my view, shouldn’t be in white society.
Blacks have, in fact, widened the disparity themselves even more with embracing enemy cults, as Islam, Gangsterism and Voodoo and futhering racist anti social cutural investments as with Rap; frankly parasitesque behaviors as a group still prevail in the vast majority of them. Their population free ride has been ecliped with Mexican labor too; so their labor isn’t essential.
The Negro and Caucuscoid are indeed very different animals, hordes of mulattos notwithstanding.
Intergration is yet, a reality to be achieved.
I’d say for those esteemable Blacks and mulattos who flourish in the culture of the USA, they should work to uplift their brothers and emigrate to Africa. The bunch of the Negroid should be shipped back to Africa or at least out of the country.
They were not citizens nor even classified as equals under the Constitution; and the evil practice of slavery, supported as it was, by crimminals, shouldn’t be justification to include them artificially into Western culture. It just doesn’t work.
Abe Lincoln, as their emancipator, had planned to send the slaves back to their respective homelands; agricultural/industrial interests thwarted that, but that’s the reparation they deserve.
princetrumpet on Aug 23
My friend Court,
I hear what you’re saying and I think your words come from discouragement and disillusionment with what your eyes see plainly all over the earth not just in the US.
My ancestors came from Spain and Africa yet I have no desire to return to either place to live nor do I think encouraging others like me is going to make things better. It would only shift the problems from one place to another. The US is my home. The friends that I have are a huge part of my life. My beautiful children would likely never consider anyplace but the US to be their home.
I see the races getting along together as a big part of G-d’s plan. Isolationism seems so unnatural to me. We’re in a point in history where we are seeing the lowest part of the blight that leftists have endowed as their legacy. What they did to change the Civil Rights struggle into a Black Power struggle was the single worst thing to minorities in this country however well-intended it might have been. Of course they had willing participants in the Black Power movement, don’t get me wrong. 70 years ago, blacks in America were as conservative as anyone is today. They were churchgoing, hardworking, pro-family, and loved America even though they were still treated horribly here. They were able to see a better day in the future and slowly but surely, as the years passed and blood was spilled in the streets, it seemed to be coming.
Then came Elijah Muhammed, Malcolm X, and The Black Panthers. White leftists fed the hate that was fomenting. LBJ ushered in the “Great Society” that finished what FDR started. It’s never been the same since then. Civil rights have been gained but tragic prices have been paid. The Black nuclear family has all but been destroyed. Black teen pregnancy and abortions have torn the fabric of black society. Black churches aren’t the part of society it once was and white liberals have been there every step of the way cheering this destruction on.
I say we’re at the lowest point and that our country will recover. Will it be in our lifetime? Probably not. But I’m betting we will rise up again to be a United States, stronger, like a hand that has been crushed and broken but whose bones will knit together. We have to, Court, we have to. And we’ll do it together. we don’t need to separate and go our seperate ways to accomplish. All we need to do is reject the way of the left and stay on course. We will fight, we will stay and fight. Reject their pseudo-intellectual blather. Reject everything that tears at our families. Embrace common sense. Embrace the will to live together as the family (I believe) G-d meant us to be.
Court on Aug 24
No doubt it’d be a trail of tears should any relocations ever occur in the USA on that order … which I certainly doubt in my life time if at all.
Nor are you talking to a David Duke type who’s at work inciteing rednecks to harrass non whites in my neighborhood. I’d in fact go to their defense should any such crimes occur. I just feel I have a right to look at the big picture and have druthers for one.
The USA has chosen the course of empire, and inclusion of all humanity is a prerequisite. I’d just prefer a humble nation.
I do sympathize but relocation needn’t always be the product of a Hitler. Sometime it’s just a matter of life and death. Particians of millions of innocent people uprooted from friends and country is not uncommon as with the Indian, Pakistani Muslim event.
Sometimes ‘God’ himself shoves people about as with the poulation of New Orleans.
But truer than nation or empire is the still extant outlay of racial divisions around the world. South Africa for all it’s progress of Western technology and population of 5 million whites runs the risk of being another Rhodesia/Zimbabwa … of becoming another racial purge … a purge of the white population. Hong Kong too reveals the Chinese contempt for their white builders and the English population is accordingly shrinking.
marantAZ on Aug 24
I thought the concensus of opinion was that George Bush was responsible for the disenfranchisement of the people of New Orleans. God did it?
Seriously, I’d have to side with princetrumpet on this, Court. Your initial response was getting pretty close to the kind of hateful rhetoric that the conservatives are always accused of, and I had a hard time reading it. My wife being Chinese and my kids being mixed probably makes me a little more sensitive to those concepts you spoke of, and while we agree on the nature of Islam, I disagree with you on this.
I don’t believe humans are naturally hateful or frightened of each other because of differences in color or appearance. Has there ever been a war waged by one race against another race because of race? It may have been a factor, it may have become a source of patriotic furvor, but I doubt that racial prejudices started the war. The desire for power, religion, and land are the causes of war, not race. Everyone wars with everyone else, regardless of diffeerences or similarities in race. This relocation you speak of, which I have no fear of ever happening, would do more harm than good. I doubt the world would survive it.
What you speak of is prejudice, not division. Because others are different, you do appear to be looking down upon them rather than thinking of them as equals. Again, I agree that the Islamic world has become a fascist empire, but it is their conduct, not their beliefs or their race, that have us at war with them.
I also don’t think the immigration of people to America is comparable to the events in Africa or China. We have a superior form of government, with guaranteed freedom, and we as a nation recognize mans desire for it by allowing immigration. What is happening in Hong Kong and Africa is a result of the power that was, Britain, accepting their place in the world and returning conguered lands to its original inhabitants. This is a natural relocation, whereas taking those that came to America, or are the ancestors of those who were enslaved here, and forcing their return to their native lands is not. The Chinese are in a position to make good use of what the British built; the Africans are not, and there will be many wars there as a result if they cannot get over their differences, none of which, as far as I can see, are racial.
Those in this country that desire its demise and hunger for its power have used any and all forms of prejudice to divide this nation. They took the words of F.D.R. and made it their M.O., you might say. Don’t give in to the fear.
Court on Aug 24
Hate rhetoric?
Your remarks come close to the vilification I predicted. Vilification is to be expected as a consequence of the welfare state’s propaganda, for anyone who dares make any non agreeable remarks concerning the state of racial affairs.
But feelings such as hate or mild annoyance etc. are not a legal or actionable transgression …YET. Still, you, as Prince trumpet, have exhibited great restraint given your family experience … I may well have been just as uncomfortable writing my opinions as you were reading that first post, had I known I’d be talking to those who have multiracial lives; (and, I don’t doubt PT’s children are as beautiful as he thinks.)I have had good friends among a variety of racial groups and don’t deny we can have much to share. I just think it’s best done from our respective cultures.
Yet, your working affirmations of interracial harmony hardly proves my observations wrong in a larger context.
If you think racial harmony is inherent in people then do away with the government civil rights laws and protections and let society, even in this enlightened era, deal with race as it chooses, say in a community to community basis. I think you’d see a frightening regression and polarization in many areas. Balkanization would occur quicker than poop through a goose.
For many blacks war is and has been a state of affairs since their ancestors were chained and whipped for some damned plantations bottom line. I could not begin to compete with that hate rhetoric.
But conversely, I don’t share your sense that it’s merely justice to see whites harried from previous colonies.
It to me betrays the worst sort of ignorant racism. Tell a Zimbabwean farmer it’s a ‘natural’ relocation from a farm that’s been in his family for centuries; one farm perhaps that fed the denzian blacks with foods beyond their wildest dreams.
As far a the Chinese communists making ‘good use’ of what the British built .. it sickens me.
BTW it is the Islamic worlds ‘beliefs’ that are central to the clash of culture we are seeing.
marantAZ on Aug 27
Court, you got a way with words, haven’t you? I enjoy reading your comments, as I do the princes.
Not that your comments were hateful, just that I don’t want your comments to appear to the casual surfer as the typical hate speech of conservatism. Your observations and your basis for them would be ignored by many because of your ‘solution’.
If I could pull it off, I would do away with those laws… most, if not all were never needed. Had laws been applied equally and uniformly as they should have been, those civil rights laws might never have been wanted. I doubt we would be any more polarized than we are now in the inner cities across the nation.
I never said it was ‘justice’, but the whites in Africa should have seen what was coming like a herd of elephants. When the train’s coming at you, get out of the way. As for the Chinese commies, well, it’d be great if they weren’t commies, but the British gave it up; what the commies may not see is that the capitalism of Hong Kong just might take over the rest of the nation before the party leaders can do anything to stop it. I can only hope.
And I can only hope that the rest of the world will agree with us that Islam is the greatest enemy to all of us.